Esteeme
Sergeant
Posts: 44
Runescape Name: Snai1
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Post by Esteeme on Feb 1, 2020 17:17:45 GMT
TLDR: Lots of negative behaviour in CC recently. Role hogging, disruptive leech practice, exploiting rules, aggressive behaviour. We should treat the rules more as guidelines to give leeway to subjectively deal with things on a case-by-case basis. People coming into the CC to practice leech BA should be directed to BA School just as torso hunters are directed to leech CCs.
Something I've noticed in CBA recently is an undercurrent of negative behaviour. I would personally call it toxicity in the non-traditional sense i.e. nothing along the lines of flaming, etc. I have realised that the discussion boils down to not defining what is Casual BA, but rather what isn't Casual BA.
It's pretty obvious that "casual" is most certainly not about annoying every other member of your team by generally being obnoxious or self-indulgent, which is something to bear in mind when digesting what I say below.
I'm not qualified There has been discussion on tightening up the rules to combat negative behaviour e.g. a new level 5 all requirement. [Role hogging has always been a thing but it's the emergence of the way people (such as role hoggers) behave which is starting to become really concerning.] I do not think this would be the correct approach. The rules should communicate the bare minimum expectation and be casual in essence (as they are now), and for good reason. No-one wants the community to devolve into an authoritarian one.
We should move to the mindset of treating the rules as guidelines rather than law. This approach would allow for much greater leeway when reacting to those "rare" (unfortunately becoming more common as of recent) circumstances as they occur.
We should move away from enforcing silly rules and enable ourselves to use our initiative and make situational judgment calls. For instance, a recent "exploit" has emerged of levelling up to level 5 in only the roles one wishes to play in. We should be empowered to resolve situations where individuals are able to use the rules in a manner opposite to their original intention i.e. by facilitating their own dubious behaviour and rendering themselves immune from judgment!
If someone is being a nuisance then obviously something needs to be done about it! You really have to ask yourself "Why wouldn't you (do something)?"
I realise that this gives the impression of being paradoxical since it sounds more authoritarian than ever. But I believe that in situations such as these, the judgment would be community-led since the sentiment is very often shared.
We should stop following the rulebook to the letter and be more pragmatic when reacting to things.
Chally and Dinh's Recently, I have seen an influx of people coming into CBA for the sole purpose of learning how to leech BA. This may be due to streamers picking up on leech BA and bringing greater awareness of how lucrative it is. These people are the prime culprits for the negative behaviour traits discussed here. Some symptoms I have seen in funs are:
Healer: "+1 out, +4" heal hogging, "no x at all, make sure you don't x69"
Defender: standing at the wall lure spot to split healers, refusing to come to the cannon when asked and giving the "It's okay, I need to practice this, I'm not affecting gameplay" speech
Attacker: (believe it or not!) chally and Dinh's specs
I always tell these people to go to BA School if it's apparent they want to practice leeching. The responses I get are mixed. Some people are appreciative but it is more often than not that these people become either very aggressive or very obtuse. To show your nasty self, when you don't get what you want, is very much not the definition of casual behaviour.
In my opinion, people that are trying to learn leech BA should be directed straight to BA School (or leech CCs), in the same way torso hunters are directed to leech CCs. These situations are perfectly analogous: there is a mismatch between the intentions of the individuals and those of the CC, their continued presence would be disruptive (at best), their needs are better met elsewhere and their desired end destination is a leech CC.
This way it's trouble free and everyone gets what they want. If it were up to me, I would even go as far as trying to convince the administrators of leech CCs to ban anyone that has proven themselves of bad character in Casual BA from joining.
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Whurse
Sergeant
Posts: 24
Runescape Name: Whurse
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Post by Whurse on Feb 1, 2020 17:50:39 GMT
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with practicing leeching in CBA.
One of your example complaints was people trying to split lures instead of coming to the cannon - I assume to shoot healers. You could make the same argument about directing people to BA School / Speed BA if they wanted to shoot healers and you wanted to play more casually. I would much rather be inclusive than start telling everyone to go to different CCs since everyone has different goals and play styles.
I actually agree that people should be more pragmatic and self-organized.
If you don't like how some other people play in the CC, I say just see if you can compromise or play with other people. The exact same applies for role hogging - try to compromise and if they don't then you and your frustrated teammates can find another player.
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Esteeme
Sergeant
Posts: 44
Runescape Name: Snai1
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Post by Esteeme on Feb 1, 2020 19:57:57 GMT
CBA should be inclusive to as great an extent as possible, yes. There's nothing wrong with practicing leech strats in CBA. Even the act of placing food on the mainstack is a leech strat by definition. The issue is with individuals that carry out strategies which negatively impact the experience of the other four members of the team. I will admit that the defender example is a little bit weak but it's the attitude some people have (and the lack that is being done about it) that really strikes me.
My suggestion isn't about trying to specifically fix the problems with role hoggers or with individuals trying to practice leech BA. My suggestion is as a response to the CC becoming an increasingly hostile environment with an increasingly apathetic acceptance from existing members. The purpose of my post was to raise these issues, suggest some causes, propose some remedies and, lastly, hope there are some people that care as much as I do and want help make the CC better with me.
On the subject of compromise, I want to it to be made aware that this has been attempted. If we take the example of heal/def hoggers training for leech BA, I have experienced numerous incidents just over the past month where compromise isn't effective because the guilty parties simply don't want to compromise (surprise!).
Example from 31/01/20 (yesterday!)
(I have been asked not to share the screenshots)
- The +4 wants to defend - The +1 wants to defend - The +1 has deliberately only levelled up to level 5 in defender and attacker - The +1 wants to practice leech def with the end goal of trialing in a leech CC - The +4 compromises and lets the +1 defend
After one round:
- The +4 asks the +1 if they could have a turn at playing defender - The +1 refuses - It is proposed to the +1 that they could play collector - "Nop its written rules" - The +1 is informed that the entire team is willing to let the rule slide - It is proposed to the +1 that they could play attacker - "Gg boiz not playing something im not lvl 5 in" - The +1 hops worlds and ditches the team - The +1 has pulled this sort of stunt numerous times since they started playing in CBA and has had it previously made aware to them that this is unacceptable behaviour
I want to refrain from posting on Discord because frankly I find it ineffective to communicate with. It just devolves into a mosh put of people making off-the-cuff statements (with good intentions or not) which obfuscates the discussion. Some people deliberately try to derail discussions by posting dog pictures, which I find unhelpful and honestly a little bit rude. So I will talk about a few things I have seen people mention over in Discord here.
I appreciate that people want to discuss the topic but (with the biggest respect in the world) this discussion is nothing more than a thought experiment for some. The issues I raise are rife in Casual BA (funs). I really like that people have opinions, ideas and suggestions but unless you have played in funs recently, then the behaviours and environment I have described are purely theoretical. The CBA some people picture may be very different from how it is now, most likely because one doesn't play in CBA frequently/recently. The people that have been affected the most are those than play in CBA, and its the thoughts of those people which are weighted more (but are not necessarily more important).
I'm proposing that we don't allow people who are blatantly practicing leech strats which negatively impact the experience of the other members of the team. We can be pragmatic when applying this, so there wouldn't be rules (I don't think we should have rules at all! see OP) explicitly stating things along the lines of "no chally/Dinh's".
People are free to do whatever they so choose as long as everyone in the team is happy with it. The incidents I have seen recently do not follow this line of thinking. They are examples of individuals unilaterally carrying out their own (typically leech practice) agenda against the will of the team. If a team wants to do strats X, Y, Z then feel free, as long as there is a consensus to do so.
Again, my main issue is with "negative" people and their behaviour which have been allowed to fester. These individuals are abusing loopholes in the way the CC is run, exploiting the good nature and intentions of existing CC members and sowing a great deal of discord. The fact that these people are being continually afforded the benefit of doubt, their behaviour excused and consideration of their well-being being placed above those who embody what the CC should be, just really doesn't sit well with me at all.
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Post by Serpico on Feb 2, 2020 1:35:20 GMT
I appreciate your input Esteeme, you raised several valid points. With risk of sounding like a hypocrite; since I'm no longer "in the zone" because I've been inactive, allow me to present my thoughts on all this.
Team formation/assigning roles is nothing more than unspoken consensual contract, with each member investing a tiny bit of bona fide inside a final product. That means that (ideally) everyone is basically making a small concession against their own will/ultimate goal or however you wanna call it, in order to get the team going. What you may perceive as a "negative trend", a threat, or some kind of distortion of the image of CBA you used to have is most likely an accumulation of the aforementioned small concessions you're constantly forced to make, which ultimately resulted in lack of patience.
If you examine CBA diachronically, you'll quickly realize that nothing truly changed over the years in terms of typical struggles when it comes to team formation. We always had more-less same archetypes of players participating in CC life: pet hunters, leechers, socialites, pvmers, casuals etc. Granted, one of those types might see an increase at one point, but I assure you that any kind of prevalence of the "selfish type" is by definition ephemeral and will quickly be regulated by cc dynamics. Of course, I can't offer you any other proof for that but my own experience.
While this spike of selfishness you're describing is indeed a hindrance, it doesn't put CBA in any kind of long-term jeopardy. Dare I say, the rules we currently have in place have been polished close to perfection. They are result of intense scrutiny and countless discussions across the years, and they will not be changed for the sake of mitigation of transient anomaly.
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Esteeme
Sergeant
Posts: 44
Runescape Name: Snai1
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Post by Esteeme on Feb 2, 2020 8:19:01 GMT
I think there's two types of people that can genuinely provide insight. There are those people that have recently played in funs (they have been in CBA) on a regular basis and there are those who have been here for an exceptionally long time. I only tick one of these boxes. I think only a very small handful of people (if any) can claim to have done both, so I appreciate your input too! I'll be the first to admit that I'm by no means a saint. Personally, my level of patience with CBA/funs is periodic but it hasn't dipped below any critical threshold. I would say that with 90%+ of my 2,500+ gambles being from 306/funs and the fact that I still play in 306/funs offers a proof of sorts. Unfortunately, some others don't share the same patience and have told me that they have decided to refrain from playing in CBA for good due to the reasons I have mentioned already. I decided to start this thread partially because of this reason. It makes me upset that exits such as these were (I believe) preventable. For instance, person X that instigated the 31/01/20 incident first set off warning bells on Sunday Races before Christmas (which I happened to be part of):
- X comes to races - X gets drafted amongst the last set of picks - X claims they can only play defender - X is eventually persuaded to play attacker - X proceeds to run down mid (a behaviour they continue to this day, I do not know if from believing it is a good strategy to convince others to let them play defender or from a lack of comprehension) - X is told by the team not to run down mid - X continues to run down mid - The team finishes last with a 15+ minute time (iirc)
You might ask "Why was X forced to play attacker?".
It was because two weeks prior to this, an identical situation arose but my team did decide to let person Y play as defender. The result disheartening as Y did not even know basic defender (shooting runners from wave 1) and was asked to switch to attacker at wave 6. Y claimed to have had a panic attack when this was proposed to them and hopped worlds immediately. Needless to say, we did not finish the race.
For X/Y's teammates, the incidents used up 4 x 30 minutes = 2 hours of time. In the funs incident, person X used up 4 x 15 minutes = 1 hour of time. I believe we need to stop indulging people like this because each time they are negatively affecting the experiences of four people - at a minimum!
There was simply no right answer with the current setup of races. I have long argued that Sunday Races aren't at all suitable for new CBAers and that a minimum requirement should be implemented - but that is a discussion for another day!
But this goes back to my suggestion of being more pragmatic, this sort of incident/individual can be resolved very easily and future atrocities prevented if we were to do so.
I didn't +out of the fun when person X joined it and I still wouldn't have +out if person X continued insisting on playing defender. I do not believe the incidents I have previously referred to are anomalous. They are certainly uncommon but it is my view that they occur at too great a frequency to be classed as anomalous. Would it not be fair to say that anomalous events require an atypical response? A pragmatic approach to such incidents is something which I only see being applied rarely and unfortunately sometimes very irrationally and ill-tempered when so. I agree with you that these incidents are usually ephemeral and there exist certain archetypes within CBA. The persona I'm about to describe has always existed but has only recently cemented their place, in my head I have coined them as the 'Goldrushing Locust'. These people are drawn by the allure of gps, are frankly a pest, travel from fun-to-fun consuming the good will and spirit of CC members until there is nothing left, and, as of right now, I think they have reached plague-status. My theory is that streamers have recent put a spotlight on how lucrative leeching is but I'm not sure. These types have always struggled to assimilate into CBA and I feel a tipping point of sorts has been reached. You've described very well how CBA implicitly works but can we not be proactive and try to change how CBA implicitly works? Why don't we attempt to find a solution for this once and for all, instead of being meekly accepting it as being the fabric of CBA? I want to take the opportunity to make clear the two main reasons I decided to start up this thread: 1) Taking a more pragmatic approach in dealing with people that are being discourteous e.g. exploiting rules or role-hogging. 2) Resolving the issue with people that unilaterally decide to practice leech strats in a way which negatively impact other members of the team. I hope it's appreciated the points are related but they are separate. Lastly, I'm not too assured on the rules being polished close to perfection. I believe that only very recently was a new rule added in light of recent events and even then (from my understanding) that addition was very hard won.
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Post by rushy on Feb 5, 2020 18:57:17 GMT
I suppose I will weigh in here as someone who plays in funs on at least an occasional basis and is very active in BA School.
Your main grievance seems to be with one player in particular, player X, but you also kind of opened the window to role hogging perhaps being a more widespread issue. IMO most people, especially newcomers, have a preference on what they would like to play and stating their preferences at team form time might come off as role hogging depending on how adamant they are about it. People are expected to have at least two roles they are willing to play and are expected to concede their role on a "rotation" if another player wants to play it also. I actually think stating your preference at team form is healthy and I do not expect to have someone jump down my throat for saying "pref heal" or "pref def" since I, personally don't like to fight the "fill" war. If it comes up that someone else in my team wants the same role as me, I will suggest either a rotation or will just play a different role.
IMO this is a blatant violation of the rules and should be punished with at least a temporary suspension... don't think anyone would argue that.
You gave a couple examples of disruptive leech practice: Healer: "no x at all, make sure you don't x69" What exactly is wrong with asking for no x? Healers have codes and they are letting you know that they will not be stocking in preparation for an extended 6 or 9, a completely reasonable request. Attacker can dupe reds until blue in the face, just don't do it through the call change.
Defender: standing at the wall lure spot to split healers, refusing to come to the cannon when asked Yeah, again this is kinda petty and I think you already conceded that. I don't know what's so bad about letting people practice the things they need to practice at the expense of maybe 6-12 seconds per wave.
Attacker: chally and Dinh's specs This is probably your strongest case because fun attacker and leech attacker metas are apples and oranges. However, I do not think the leech practice aspect is what is wrong here, it's blindsiding your unsuspecting teammates with it that causes problems. BA School can and probably should be leveraged for this... and it is. The vast majority of recent classes have been for solo attacker. If the plan is to refer leech practicers to BA School, more people from CBA should participate in BA School as well. It oftentimes takes hours to form a single team there so people becoming impatient and wanting to practice elsewhere is at least understandable.
Exploiting rules should be punished. Vehement role hogging should be dealt with case by case, leaving mid-run should be dealt with harshly case by case. Stepping back a bit, you're criticizing "please don't x I'm trying to practice leech codes" in the same thread as "I am level 1 coll, I shouldn't be colling according to your cc rules". If someone is being a dickhead and hogging a role/purposely not leveling other roles/whatever, report to a star, explain the rules, vote them off the island, and throw an F+1 in the chat... but if someone is legitimately not leveled in a role, then they are likely not practiced in that role, and are likely not going to perform to the expected standard.
My impression of casual BA is a place where you can practice your sweaty tryhard speed strats, leech strats, learn the game, play for fun, play with friends, etc. without receiving harsh criticism. If we are experiencing an influx of "goldrushing locusts" that are disregarding our basic rulebook, they should be dealt with as they come.
tl;dr : Play with respect, practice what you want respectfully, deal with those not doing so when they come along. I'm in favor of referring people to BA School only if more people are willing to participate in BA School.
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Esteeme
Sergeant
Posts: 44
Runescape Name: Snai1
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Post by Esteeme on Feb 7, 2020 0:06:05 GMT
You're pretty much spot on. BA School is actually pretty great but under utilised. I was in there last month for a bit while learning leech attacker, and also joined a few h/d classes whenever I saw them pop up. It was nice. Staying at the wall lure spot (after someone suggests coming to the cannon), no x69 (if capable as healer), asking for no eggs, etc aren't really sufficient for defining negative people. They're not even necessary but just potential precursors / warning signs to negative behaviour. For example, last month, someone was healing a lot in funs asking for no x. You could tell it would end badly pretty soon enough. A bit later, I happened to be in 306 and they stormed in demanding to people in the cc to scroll them as heal. Most people just ignored them but they managed to get a team together in the end. They then ended up rage quitting mid-fun since the defender wasn't up to their standard to enable to them to practice their leech heal. Not a nice situation for anyone. These sorts of things are quite easily preventable if things are done sooner or if leech practice is (maybe banned) strongly discouraged. If you exclude the people trying to practice leech, most people are just there to play as fast as possible without being too sweaty (casual speed). I'm pretty confident when I say the disruptive people behaving badly fit the goldrushing locust archtype desperate to join the leech CCs and start getting those gps --> something needs to be done about leech practice in CBA. Maybe some of these people have proven me right already
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Post by rushy on Feb 13, 2020 6:14:18 GMT
I just don't think in general it's a fundamental negative to practice leech strats (heal and def) in funs. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the examples you are giving were about the actual leech strats themselves instead of problematic individuals. De-personify ba for a moment and replace the players with robots. What def/heal leech strats specifically are problematic in funs to the point they need to be banned? I think we can all agree that west side leech practice (a/c block, colling for egg count, and challying) is probably unhealthy in funs.
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Post by julian on Feb 21, 2020 0:39:27 GMT
Recently? This has been like this since forever.
You can't direct the way the culture a clan is going by trying to enforce rules, best you can do about this is to act yourself the way you believe a clan member is supposed to act to set an example to your clan mates and new members.
Also 100% agree with this:
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gen
Sergeant
anime
Posts: 9
Runescape Name: Gen4 UU
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Post by gen on Mar 9, 2020 18:06:05 GMT
Leechers have always acted like that and they're never going to change. Should've been cast out like lepers at the very start but it's too late since they infiltrated management many years ago.
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